First of all, BB could you not use the word "retarded" please? It's not necessary. Parent, what law protects workers? I'd like to see the one that says you can't arbitrarily fire employees so you can hire someone else overseas. Or how about you can't require employees to work overtime for no pay, or you can't order miners into mines that are unsafe, or a law that prevents you from promoting females that are more experienced and proficient than any male you employ, or firing females for getting pregnant. You are burying your head in the sand if you think all workplaces are fair.

Sully, Grayslake Parent is talking about laws that keep children out of delicately placing things in the shredding machine of sharp death. Unions are good organizations for fighting labor abuses and poor safety conditions. They are not needed for professionals in 2013.

Taxpayer, again I disagree. Anyone can abuse the system. The semantics may not be the same, but the actions are.

Sully, as a professional what actions do you think I should be fearing that should send me running into the warm embrace of a union? (which, by the way, I think differs much between public and private)

I'm not too dense to catch on to your comment about babysitters...I chose not to engage.

You seem to be making some of my argument for me. I agree your value SHOULD be determined by your actions and abilities. Unfortunately this process is inhibited when unions are involved.

I also agree that if their contract states that meeting certain milestones in advancing eduction means a pay increase that they should get it. However, I do not agree with creating such incentives. Pay should be based on performance, not spending a few hours in class getting another piece of paper. If the additional education was valuable performance will improve and compensation increases accordingly.

Black Betty,

When did I get chosen for NCLB defense?

Why is my reading wrong - because it disagrees with what you'd like to believe? Everyone's skills develop over the course of their career - that is not to say someone with 5 years and a bachelor can't be more productive than someone with 10 years and a masters. In my own industry I have seen this time and time again. Credentials and abilities are not the same thing. I'm not paid any more if I get a masters - I'm paid for my abilities. So should teachers be. I want to reward good ones and cull away the bad ones.

I have continuing education too. Although it's not a requirement to keep a license. It's a self-imposed requirement to keep and increase my skills on the market, so that I can seek and justify wage increases and so I can avoid getting let go, since I don't have an obscenely protective firing process to shield me.

How many students at all come out of a 4 year college knowing all they need to know? What makes a talented teacher all that different than what makes a talented professional of any sort? Yet the vast majority of us get along without unions and strikes.

The PE teacher followed their agreement in their contact, I don't disagree. My point is that if I can find someone who could do the job just as well for 80k, that the PE teacher was overpaid. I suspect that more than a few people out there could have done so, and being the taxpayer, I'm the one that overpaid.

Are you a bus driver? I'm catching sniffs of language used by another person in your tone.

No I work at McDonald's lol. What are you implying?

And if you can't leave, shouldn't you take care of what you have?

So a taxpayer can no longer afford their home due to rising taxes and they foreclose. How does that affect property values any differently than what you are implying RonV? What I find truly sad is that the teachers are not being properly represented by the arrogant and blatantly uncivilized comments being made on their behalf in every Patch comments section that I've read, and by so many who claim to be their supporters.

Tara
If a homeowner is so close to the belt that a couple hundred bucks puts them in foreclosure, then they clearly over extended in the first place.

Ron, while I agree with you that the state of our district did not happen over night and poor planning along with other things that were out of everyone's control is why we are here. You strongly believe that the BOE is lying, and I would believe there is probably some falsehood on both sides. But are you really wiling to risk that the BOE is lying 100% and that there is plenty of money for what the teachers are demanding? In the end, the teachers gets what they want and the BOE has to make some serious cuts in Year 2..then what? Even if say there is twice as much in the budget than the BOE is letting on, still not enough. You are willing to risk your kids education when the class sizes increase and the demands on the teachers time increases and they lose planning session and your child is fighting for their attention or is struggling. Will it be worth it? Is that it? Is that what striking is all about? Playing chicken?

Ron, we have lived in Grayslake for over 30+ years. Our parents have lived there even longer. We bought our very small, older home over 10 years ago. Since then, there have been job losses, career changes, and SIGNIFICANT tax increases. I do not take your or Terri's comments as rude, I just realize that they're coming from someone who doesn't know me or my family's personal situation. I apologize if any of my comments are rude, please cut, copy and repost anything that I've said that you deem disrespectful, uncivilized, or mean spirited towards the teachers...or anyone else for that mater. I posted this on the teachers' site "The fact that our property values are dropping while our taxes increase has nothing to do with my respect for the teachers, and certainly does not mean that I do not support the teachers. Both John Dewey and Bertrand Russell agreed that open-mindedness is one of the fundamental aims of education and leads to true critical thinkers. A teacher, and those of us who support them even though we might not agree on certain issues, should always challenge the notion that our own views are absolutely certain. This is why I post here. It's honest, respectful, and a platform for thinkers...being that it is the teachers' page." The same feelings apply to my posts on the Patch and I have NEVER posted anything under an alias.

Wow Ron and Teri, that's a pretty broad brush you two are painting with when you tell Tara and others that don't earn over $45k, they are overextended financially. Maybe both of you should keep your assumptions to yourselves and learn to stick with facts! Here's a fact, the district is broke and no amount of hoping and obfuscation will change that. Maybe there is a money tree somewhere you two can shake?

Deadcat
If you read my post, it said anyone that gets foreclosed upon over a couple hundred bucks, must be over extended to begin with. I firmly believe that.

Home schooling is horrible. Bad.

Brad
That's not fair. It's a choice. I just disapprove with test scores as the measure.

You see, "home schooling is horrible", is the cogent argument I would expect from a person like brad educated in the public school system!

Home schooling is stinky???

Ok, here is one specific aspect which has a devastating impact on the children - the social aspect. It is very easy to pick out a home schooled child in a crowd.

Just for the record, even though this has nothing to do with the strike, here's an excerpt from an article in Time Magazine:"More than 1 million students are being schooled at home, and their ranks are growing about 15% a year, according to the U.S. Department of Education. And though they still account for only a small fraction of the applicant pool at most colleges, homeschoolers are winning over admissions officers. This year Stanford University accepted 26% of the 35 homeschoolers who applied--nearly double its overall acceptance rate. Twenty-three of this fall's 572 freshmen at Wheaton College in Illinois were homeschooled, and their SAT scores average 58 points higher than those of the overall class. "Often we're impressed by what someone has done under unusual circumstances," says Marlyn McGrath Lewis, director of admissions at Harvard University. "And homeschooling fits the bill."
So, you're right Brad, homeschoolers definitely stand out in a crowd.

Also, the social stigma of homeschooling is just that, a stigma. Here are just a few homeschoolers that obviously had no problem adjusting socially with their public and private schooled peers:
Timothy Dwight - President of Yale University,
Frank Vandiver - President of Texas A&M University
Booker T. Washington - Founder of Tuskegee Institute
John Witherspoon - President of Princeton University
Robert Frost
Irving Berlin
Frank Lloyd Wright
Felix Mendelssohn
Thomas Edison
Daniel Webster
Benjamin Franklin
Eli Whitney
Cyrus McCormick
Joseph Pulitzer
Ansel Adams
Jason Taylor (NFL)
Louis Armstrong
Ray Kroc - founder of McDonald's
Susan B. Anthony
Will Smith
Charles Dickens
C.S. Lewis
& 14 U.S. Presidents

Yea whatever. Home schooling still is a horrible moronic choice.

Home schooling = bad.

I don't use the word "idiot" very often, but you are an idiot if you home school.

deadcatbounce-even though we disagree on a number of topics I appreciate this info

After going to school for my master's in teaching, I decided, after learning so much about the state of public schools since NCLB, and after my field experience, that the Public School was not for me...or for my children. I truly believe the system is obsolete and needs a complete overhaul, from the way it's financed to the unfunded state mandates, to the disconnected top down management. That being said, the teachers are not the ones to blame for the state of public education, and a child, through good teachers, can still get a great education in the public school in the same way that a child can get a great education in a private, charter, and homeschool. The one thing that is truly necessary for a child to get a great education is not money, it's having parents and teachers (even if the teacher is the parent) who care.

I think you're absolutely dead on. "Home schoolERS lead spelling bee", as opposed to "home schoolED"

Thanks for taking the time to look at my presentation. You should have come to the meeting for the explanation of that slide. You would have known that I have contacted the district about the data found.

That slide is NOT projected, it is ACTUAL directly from ISBE website data showing the change from 2011 to 2012. I did not include any highest paid salary data from 2013.

If you want an open and honest discussion, you should ask questions to make sure you have the correct information instead of spinning and insinuating false information.

I said the teachers don't even work in the district anymore (2012/2013). I made no reference to your data being FY13. Nothing false, nothing spun.

Actually you did since it was in reference to only 2011 and 2012 data. In using 2013 in the context of no 2013 data, you are insinuating the data is inaccurate.

Actually, the data is wrong, I think you said "I believe there are errors. I didn't need to insinuate anything as you admitted it. As to the fact that a number of the teachers you listed on your slide don't even work in the district anymore (2012/2013), that was simply a statement of another fact. The only insinuation was that I didn't think it was real vent, but that's my opinion. Further, the teacher on line 3 of that slide didn't work in the district 2010/2011, either. ISBE, through your link, reports $0 for FY11 (2010/2011). That makes your slide even worse.

Screen shot from the ISBE website showing L Clark, from line 3 of my highest paid slide with a salary of $72,655.59 for 2011.
http://forourchildrensfuture.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/D46ClarkScreenShot.png

Now, again Terri, you are proven to be flat out making false statements. I guess it really is true that you do NOT want an honest discussion of the facts. I am done with these lies and false statements.

To everyone else who wants to have an honest discussion please let me know. I will be glad to come to a meeting you setup so we can discuss the issues in an open and honest manner.

Look...I'm the first to admit that I looked at the wrong teacher...there are 2 by the same name. You know you can accomplish the same thing without dragging innocent people's names on line. I still cannot verify the jump from $72.6 to $94.3 in one year. Can you enlighten me?

Terri stateed, ".there are 2 by the same name" -- No there are NOT. There is only 1 Clark in both 2011 and 2012. Keep trying to spin your false statements. You are digging the hole deeper.

Sorry...I meant $82 to $107 (29%).

As stated before I have contacted the district about these numbers. I believe there is an error. Not sure if was a district error or an ISBE error at this point. There was no 2010 data on the ISBE website, all I could download was 2011 and 2012. My assumption is that the 2011 data is really from a previous year, which I stated at the townhall. I have received an email back from them that Anna (Bus. Mgr) will be looking into this.

As you can see by the salary schedule raise calculations (p 10) raises were much higher than what both the district and union have been saying to the public. We need the truth, not the spin. Past raises of 4.5% to over 7% have overly generous the past few years, especially given the economy for this same time period.

How about the third line? $83 to $94 (30%)?

I just added the URL to the ISBE data on the presentation chart for your reference. The district will have to resolve/explain this data just as I stated above.

Thanks...doesn't work...

So, let me get this strait. I should:
"ask questions to make sure you (I) have the correct information instead of spinning and insinuating false information."
But you post information where you "believe there is an error. Not sure if was a district error or an ISBE error at this point." and the only way to know that is to come to your meeting?
You should be ashamed of posting data, with names, that you admittedly believe is erroneous...and the only disclaimer is a link that doesn't work that comes after you're called out? Some of the teachers in your slide don't even work in the district anymore. Why would the teachers want a link to misleading information on their Facebook page?

What's interesting Lennie is that it is your Tea Party shenanigans that have helped get this district into the financial mess they are in: fighting against and finally being successful in not raising levies, submitting numerous FOIA's that have cost the district lawyer fees and other costs, and having such a loud voice that this ridiculous board thinks it is the community's voice! So the teachers' Facebook page doesn't let you post. Who cares! They know your background and who you are. Quit acting like you're a noble citizen.
One more question- what school law and finance training have you received that helps you think you are a voice of authority on how to fix this mess?? Just curious. Because from where I stand, being a computer programmer isn't the necessary training.

lol. You are mistaken. Myself and many others have been the ones sounding the alarms about the financial mess the district was heading into. We were the ones fighting to keep programs from being cut, providing ways to cut wasteful spending and to cut costs while providing quality education. It is the unwillingness of the board majority and administration to heed the warnings or even research any ideas other than their own that have lead us into this fiscal mess.

Using the link from ISBE that I provided still does not give you the 2010 data. Grayslake D46 is not available in the dropdown. The data posted is from 2011 and 2012. Again, still not 2013 like you keep falsely insinuating. Please provide the source link for the data you used since it is different than the data I have found from ISBE.

Second you show year 10 - 12, that is still only 2 yrs of raises, not 3.

The 40-50 number comes from the district being forced to RIF 37 teachers displacing 740- 962 children (based on current classroom size) and pushing them into other classes. The union's current offer adds up to another 12 teachers to that or 240 - 312 children displaced. That is a total of 980 - 1274 children. Dispersement of those into other classrooms will put you into the 40 - 50 range per class.

If you are anyone else would like to setup a group meeting to go over my presentations, I will be happy to come speak with them. That way we can go into more detail.

Openness, honesty and a dialogue is what is need to solve this issue not your continued distortions and insinuations.

I'd like to know where the 40/50 class size comes from...

The 37 comes form the D46 website. The 38 was my calculation based on the numbers I have available from the Interactive Report Card. I do not have the average salary costs numbers for 2013 the district is using for it's calculation.

The district gave the 37 after they revised their budget #'s for 2014. See slide 7 for the explanation of the new numbers from the district.

If 40 teachers had 23 kids per class, and were not offset by attrition of highly paid teachers and decreased enrollment, there might be some convoluted math that would increase class size. You know the math is not that simple. Otherwise, the current 330 teachers & 4,000 students would create an average class size of 12.

Terri you indicated on a prior post that not all 330 are classroom teachers, some of these are aides, ESL, etc....so what would remain as classroom teachers and losing 38 teaching positions and that many kids would be displaced I would think that it could be a fairly reasonable conclusion that classes would go from the average 23/class to at least 35-40/class.

Depends on who is RIF'd and how the balance are allocated. Like I said, convolute the math and anything is possible.

You also need to account for attrition and decreased enrollment.

As to PMA's forecast, I'll say that I believe the GSA forecast for FY15 and beyond is flawed. The Administration's presentation on the Levy showed an expected GSA proration of 80% for FY14. PMA indicated they held the proration flat at 89%. To me, it looks like their FY15 GSA number is too high by at least $700k. If FY14 is dropped to 80%, who knows how low FY15 might be? 70%? Additionally, as I've posted elsewhere, the legislature is now looking at potentially lowering the Foundation amount from $6,119/pupil on top of the 80% proration. Just a $100 drop in the Foundation results in a GSA decline of $370k before proration. My guess is that PMA's FY15 GSA forecast of $7.1 million will actually end up at around $5.5M-$6.0M once Springfield is done adjusting GSA calculations over the next 1.5 years.

Teachers are not eligible for unemployment benefits. I have always agreed we could eliminate a school and create tremendous savings.

Yes, teachers ARE eligible to receive unemployment benefits. The district will receive a quarterly billing from IDES for all the unemployment claims for those they fired. That will begin for the June 30, 2013 billing once school ends in June and the RIF'd employee's file for unemployment benefits. The June 30 statement will reflect those payments made during the month of June 2013.

Yep...my bad...I wonder if the district has factored that?
BTW...thank you for civil discourse. I learn a lot from you.

Happy to help. If you were to delete the uncivil posts from this site, you'd only have about 10 posts. :) As to the unemployment expense being "factored" in yet, who knows? If they are reflying on PMA to do the "factoring", probably not. I am not a big fan of theirs. I guess what concerns me beyond the status of negotiations is that there should have been some extensive analysis already performed by the district on restructuring the district. Its obvious that the district cannot offer the same level of class sizes/programs/etc. as it has in the past given the rapidly declining state revenue in all forms. A school closure study is very complicated. It has to look at every school's location, capacity, operating costs, bus routes, boundaries, re-sale potential, and student load distribution impact on the remaining schools. And if they plan on RIF'ing anywhere near 40 or more classroom teachers, they better get to work immediately to decide which school will close. If not, class sizes at some grade levels, at some schools will be untenable. I'm also wondering if they factored in the lost levy revenue for June here due to the Levy freeze decision?

I am not a fan of PMA either. They tend to always predict dire budgets and the need for a referendum. I believe the district also decided to no longer use them for 5 year budget planning.

The latest budget figures from the district reflect the update revenues and include their contract proposal numbers.

I don't see how the district can RIF near 40 teachers as well. It would be devastating to the children's education. They will be deficit spending though if they do not. I still do not understand why the Union is negotiating for higher classes. It is unfathomable.

This component of SB 7 will be useful, eventually. Most administrators are still receiving training on how to evaluate teachers under the SB 7 requirements. I'd be shocked if D46 (or ANY district) gave performance reviews last year under SB 7 guidelines that would be acceptable for generating a RIF list.

I am not sure they have started those evaluations either. I do believe Cary 26 may have done something similar leading up to their strike last school year. I believe their list was probationary teachers even if not last in.

Actually they are responsible for every kid in their building and staff. The salaries reflect that responsibility. You need to pay quality people to be in those positions because if something goes wrong it's on them. Lower the salary, you end up lowering the standards of the people who take whose positions.

I agree. I even proposed a 5 yr contract. See http://forourchildrensfuture.com for the details.