A Tale of Two Systems

Vicki Wilson September 11, 2012 at 12:34 pm

Those who think teachers unions cause no harm to the children for whom public education was created need to watch Waiting for Superman. You can choose to be blindly pro-union (I used to be) or you can be informed and open your eyes. Your choice.

Susan Kozloff September 11, 2012 at 12:45 pm

So you don't think a teacher can teach at age 60 or above? Are you aware that legislation was passed in Illinois two years ago requiring that newly hired teachers MUST work to the age of 67 to collect full pension benefits? Maybe you should inform the state legislature of this! Truly they are not aware!

Susan Kozloff September 11, 2012 at 12:55 pm

One of the reasons why teachers do not want principals to choose thier teachers is because of graft, kickbacks, and favoratism. This is why it was changed years ago and we should not go back to this system.

Susan Kozloff September 11, 2012 at 01:02 pm

No jobs? Well since teachers are so well compensated and you need a high-paying job....go SUB! If you do, I am sure you would not choose a city school where you might need to fight for your life just to get to the door! These nay-sayers need to be the fly on the wall in an urban school setting. I am sure they would applaud the teachers as heros. A friend of mine has a son who is a beginning teacher and was assigned to teach a 45 minute summer school class in Chicago. Afterwards, he went home, called his mom and cried. He said he was not going back. The kids did not listen nor respect him. 45 minutes was all it took.

Guido McGinty September 11, 2012 at 01:08 pm

"but private schools charge tuition"
Public schools charge involuntary tuition whether or not you attend. Private schools charge less tuition per capita.

Sully September 11, 2012 at 01:26 pm

Where's the personal attack Lennie? I would question any adult who uses teenager's terms.

Sully September 11, 2012 at 01:28 pm

Guido, have you seen the tuition of some of the private North shore schools? As well as tuition, there are fees for text books, sports participation, and a number of smaller things.

Sully September 11, 2012 at 01:31 pm

Since I am frequently attacked for using "Ailinsky tactics", maybe I should read him. I never heard of him til I started posting on here.

Sully September 11, 2012 at 01:37 pm

Jerry, I'm not referring to coal miners of 100 years ago. I'm talking about right now. With no regulations and no chance for refusing to work under dangerous conditions, miners are at the mercy of their employers. That's also what I was referring to in regard to teachers. I'm not comparing the two types of work. I really do need to be less figurative and more concrete around here, don't I?

Charley Krebs September 13, 2012 at 12:00 am

Again, thanks everyone for participating in a dialog on this opinion page...alas, with some mid-week developments since sunday, my cartoon is a bit outdated at least in a few suburbs.

Walter White September 13, 2012 at 12:20 am

Lennie has a job
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y

Robert Jr. September 13, 2012 at 01:51 am

It now seems to me that the unions have in fact colluded and planned a systemic strike, starting in Chicago, then Lake Forrest, and then spreading around the state, expecting Obama to step in to quiet things down before the election.
Seems like they have turned on their candidate and are using threats and voting leverage ... if this is so, we the tax payers need to prepare for holding those accountable for the collusion to stop education for political purposes. That may be a Federal offense.

Susan Kozloff September 13, 2012 at 02:08 am

That's so ridiculous! Wow!You must also believe that Kennedy's murder was a conspiracy as well. You truly believe there is collusion? Sad that you actually spent a part of life dreaming this up....listen to Rush much?

Stuart Tindall September 13, 2012 at 02:12 am

Isn't there a third option? To be pro-union and not "blind" as you put it? The black and white mentality in this country is choking off our public discourse and I wish you would stop.

Curious Resident September 13, 2012 at 11:15 am

Here's the thing..Lake Forest High School teachers are on strike...it is reported and not denied that it is about salary and healthcare. CTU/CPS teachers are on strike not for the money...they agreed to the salary and refused the wellness plan for healthcare, but I believe the health package was resolved. Here are the true issues that are being bargained for and if I remember correctly, one of these areas was heavily fought for with Deerfield last year. CPS faculty have an average class size of 40+ students. Average some are much higher...social worker and nurses number is approximately 200 for the third largest school system in the country. That means with all the problems within the city of violence we have about 200 for 350,000 students to assist. Curriculum, teachers are lucky if they receive textbooks etc 6-8 weeks into the school year, and even then there are not enough for the class sizes. Evaluations, unfortunately this is something that falls under Reach for the Top and No Child Left Behind...so the only way to get that done fairly since there really is no eval system developed at this time is to bargain for standardized testing to be a lower % of it. First in testing, not all students do well, but can do well within the classroom, then you have special education students that don't care especially in the city, and you have a standardized test that is not based nationally. Think would you be ok with that if it was your review? 40% of you keeping the job. Hmmm

Curious Resident September 13, 2012 at 11:17 am

Oh...and average salary also includes extra curricular areas that teachers take on to earn more money...otherwise average salary is about $50,000. No teacher if they love children go into teaching for the money. I personally would rather have smaller class sizes, textbooks for my children when they start school, and anything else to give my kids the same chances as suburban kids, if I lived in the city.

Guido McGinty September 13, 2012 at 11:50 am

Why are they fighting against an evaluation process?

Guido McGinty September 13, 2012 at 11:54 am

26k for extracurriculars? You don't teach math, do you?
Since CPS has a staggering deficit, I would not anticipate getting smaller class sizes.

Curious Resident September 13, 2012 at 12:03 pm

Guido...you apparently don't understand the math...average means they take all the salaries add them up and divide it by the total number of staff members. So, yes, $50,000 is the average, and most do extras to earn more. That's where the 70k comes from because the extras are included in their salary. Plus you have to remember this is a k-12 district and high school teachers typically earn a higher salary. Every area for teachers is mostly in a staggering deficit...still doesn't mean you need or should attempt to teach 40+ students per class.

Curious Resident September 13, 2012 at 12:08 pm

I wish people would stop using the word fighting...it is negotiating! They are negotiating the evaluation process, because districts are attempting to implement a system that has not been developed yet, either by the state or nation! Every district reads the policy, and then interpets it the way they want to interpet it. 40% of a person's evaluation system to count on test scores that are all over the place seems high in my opinion. I am not saying that it should not be a part of the process, I am saying that 40% is a bit high, and it is being based off of something that hasn't been developed yet! Why not bring board members, teachers, and principals together as a team and develop an eval process that works fairly for all parties, instead of blantly saying...sorry 40% better get those scores up or your job is in jeopardy. Doesn't that turn teaching into teaching to a test instead of teaching to a curriculum and getting students happy to be involved in learning. I'd be bored out of my mind if teaching to the test is what my children were doing in class day in and day out.

Susan Kozloff September 13, 2012 at 12:17 pm

Finally! Someone who "gets it"! Not only nurses, and most other support staff in short supply but psychologists in particular. Only 200 or so for the entire district. So many kids are special needs and by law each must be tested to determine which if any program he/she is to shuttles into for that year. Law also dictates that these student be re-evaluated within a short time frame. Each write up is pages long. Hours are taken taken for evaluations, staffings and often due process hearings. Even if each psychologist worked 24/7, 365 days a year there would never be enough time to catch up much less take on new cases. Each psychologist has thousands of kids as their individual case load. The board is rarely in compliance with the government on these issues....another dirty little secret.

Susan Kozloff September 13, 2012 at 12:20 pm

All teachers in Chicago are on the same salary schedule.....unlike lmost districts,elementary and high school teachers earn the same....however, you are correct that high school teachers do have the ability to earn more by doing more as in coaching and club monitoring, etc.

Guido McGinty September 13, 2012 at 12:21 pm

I understand the math perfectly. I took the 76k average, subtracted your purported number of 50k to arrive at an average extracurricular bump of 26k.
Your claim of 26k for extracurriculars is preposterous.

Mark Stein September 13, 2012 at 12:25 pm

When you look at pay at the High School level, the numbers that people throw around often includes pay for coaching football and other major sports. Coaching at the High School level is a major committment of time and is considered to be separate from teaching work.
Many area schools hire coaches who don't even teach at the school.

Susan Kozloff September 13, 2012 at 12:26 pm

Bottom line here is that Rahm wants the schools to fail. His plans are to privitize as many as possible. Failing school=closed school=charter school. Then he is off the hook for pay, benefits, pensions, and all accountability as non-performance then becomes the charter's corporate problem. Clearly he is stacking the deck against the teachers forcing their hand for their own failure.....and the teachers know it.....THAT IS WHY THEY ARE STRIKE

Susan Kozloff September 13, 2012 at 12:31 pm

Actually I believe they are including the "step" increase which almost all districts employ for longevity. One you hit the 15 year mark, the step disappears. The only raise then would be the contracted one. Rahm also wants to discontinue higher pay for educators with advanced degrees....so a BA would earn the same as a PHd....yet he wants only the "best" teachers. Uh-hu.

Susan Kozloff September 13, 2012 at 12:39 pm

Yes Lennie....there is a huge deficit.....because of mismanagement by the former king Daley. Didn't pay his share of pension costs.....actually "borrowed" money for the fund when he first took over the schools.....NEVER repaid...... And now the money, by law is due. Oh, I forgot to balme the teachers for this as well, since they are the only ones who have supported their retirees' pensions though automatice deducutions for many years now. Thank goodness they have savvy investors and thier board of directors looking out for their interests as no one else really seems to care, do they?

Sully September 13, 2012 at 12:50 pm

Again with the LOL, Lennie? You can't come up with something a little more adult-like? I don't mind reading the other side; I just prefer it be truthful. I can't say that about your links. Post something factual from a credible source.

Sully September 13, 2012 at 12:56 pm

Mark, my disagreement with that is that some school districts require their teachers to be in the union whether they want to be or not. I also think there are teachers who disagree with a union's stance, but do not feel safe in expressing that view. However, I do believe unions are necessary. I wish they were held more accountable sometimes.

Lennie Jarratt September 13, 2012 at 01:09 pm

I am just waiting for the adults to show up to have an honest discussion instead of the petty bickering and personal attacks.